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A ‘True Fundamentalist’ Update

April 21, 2007

Back on March 30th, I commented on Honjii’s blog saying:

So if I can’t use God to determine or prove anything (because of ‘Circular Reasoning’), then you can’t use reason.
Meaning, if I believe something because God says so, then what’s wrong with that? You believe something because ‘reason’ tells you so, what’s the difference? We both believe that a ‘higher power” (God and Reason) determines what we know. Let’s both use that.

On April 1st, Simen of import Mind.Reason made a post of his own mocking calling me a “true fundamentalist.”

I then proceeded to partake in a discussion with Simen (aided by Allison, a regular SW Reader) on my comment.

Simen evaded our questioning and refuesed to answer several of our questions – including the original question, “If Athiests can use reason to prove something, then why can’t Theists use God to prove something?”
I asked Simen that very question (with some word variation) seven times out of eight comments – and he still never answered it. Even when I said:

And since you still haven’t answered my original question, I assume you don’t have a response to it but don’t want to acknowledge that I’m right.
So why can’t I use God to prove things when you can use reason to prove things?

he still didn’t answer the question, said I’m “dead wrong,” and still didn’t answer my question.

I can see where he’s coming from, but to flat out not answer a question just seems a bit extreme.

Pray for him.

//Bring it World
-Brian Purkiss


//Continued from A True Fundamentalist

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9 comments

  1. Will do.

    Just a couple of thoughts…it’s encouraging to see a young man unashamed of the testimony of our Lord, but don’t ever forget that taking up this banner to defend the Cross is a heavy responsibility.

    Debate can be good, but God’s Spirit must be at work both in us and the people we are speaking to if it is to be fruitful. First and second Timothy have a ton of excellent warnings and admonitions and encouragements along those lines, as I imagine you know. Never forget them!

    “Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treausre which has been entrusted to you.” (II Tim. 1:14)


  2. Hi Brian,
    Many of the questions you have posed on my blog have been answered. You just don’t like the answers you get, so you consider the questions unanswered, and attempt to persist until you get the answers you want, which as you already know, probably aren’t coming from most of the readers of my blog.
    Honjii


  3. I think he answered your question: you can’t use god to prove things because you need faith to prove god. And so, use god to prove things is the same thing as use faith to prove things.

    And in your conversation with Simen you admit that you can’t do that (“And I do agree that faith is not a way to prove anything |…|”)


  4. The Derbi,
    You need faith in reason to prove something with reason.
    You need faith that your reason isn’t flawed and that you are actually thinking. (after all, we can’t see thought or prove it scientifically, so from an evolutionist’s point of view, ‘thought’ is just random firing of the brain.)

    Honjii,
    Many of my questions were answered, but I was able to refute most of them. I refrain from saying all because I do not know of every single bit of info.
    If you think otherwise, please show me an example.


  5. I didn’t say that I “believe” reason could prove anything. I don’t “believe” in reason. As you cold see, in the modern science, nothing is definitive. And I think Simens has the same opinion. But why should I prefer an obscure history, full of contradiction, without any kind of trully manifestation, to a sistem that has generating knowledge (usable knowledge) for centuries?

    In other words, why should I explain the universe with god? God is in the same state that the flying spaghetti monster!!

    And as you admit that “faith is not a way to prove anything” (in your own words) and the only thing that leads you to believe in god’s existence is faith, it seems to me a little contradictory your wish to prove things with god argument.


  6. It is your belief that you were able to refute some of the answers, but only in a matter satisfactory to you or those who think as you do.


  7. …the only thing that leads you to believe in god’s existence is faith, it seems to me a little contradictory your wish to prove things with god argument.

    Ah… That is where you are wrong my friend. I do not believe in God because of faith. I believe in God by faith. Just the same as you believe (by faith) that when you die there is no afterlife.
    I came to belive in God because of the Bible (Check out The reliability of the Bible).

    You don’t “believe” in reason? Then how can you know it to be true? You have to believe your reason to be true to know it to be true – if you follow me.

    But why should I prefer an obscure history, full of contradiction, without any kind of trully manifestation, to a sistem that has generating knowledge (usable knowledge) for centuries?

    Oh… But Christianity has produced knowledge (and usable knowledge) for centuries.
    Did you know that Science was ‘founded’ by Christians?
    Obscure History… Hm… I never thought the Bible was obscure. It is actually quite detailed. Have you read it? It’s quite detailed. The exact day that Jesus was to ride in on a donkey was predicted, along with many other prophocies. Even some ‘non-religious’ ones – such as the downfall of Babylon.
    Full of contradictions… Really? Where?
    No true manifestation? Wow… which Bible have you read? The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is the only way to earn salvation – that murder is wrong – etc.

    I suggest you read the Bible. It’s quite interesting.

    Honjii,
    Could you please show me some examples? I do not see any.


  8. “I believe in God by faith. Just the same as you believe (by faith) that when you die there is no afterlife.”

    I said that? I don’t believe on that. I’m agnostic, I really don’t care about this question. I have a lot of objective things to care about, why should I waste my life time thinking about things that are far away from human limits of comprehension? We never prove nothing in this field.

    “You don’t “believe” in reason? Then how can you know it to be true? You have to believe your reason to be true to know it to be true – if you follow me.”

    I have to believe? I really don’t know if reason fits the universe in it’s principles or vice-versa, but the products of thinking the universe with reason are the basics of modern life, we couldn’t talk here without many products of reason, for example. If a new sistem arrives and demonstrate to be more useful than reason I will feel free to enjoy it. As the quantum physics explain physical phenomena much better than the newtonian. there’s no eternal true, in my point of view.

    “Oh… But Christianity has produced knowledge (and usable knowledge) for centuries.
    Did you know that Science was ‘founded’ by Christians?”

    could you please share some of this knowledge? produced BY Christianity AND NOT ONLY by Christian scientists?

    There is many non christian scientists around the world, do you say that their works are worse than the cristians works? The fundamentals of science exists before christian era, in many parts of the ancient world you have people using reason to solve mathematical problems.

    “I never thought the Bible was obscure. It is actually quite detailed.”

    I agree with this, bible is even more detailed than the lord of the rings!

    “Have you read it? It’s quite detailed. The exact day that Jesus was to ride in on a donkey was predicted, along with many other prophocies. Even some ‘non-religious’ ones – such as the downfall of Babylon.”

    I read the bible. many historical romances are full of references of facts and reallity. Just because harry potter describes london will I believe that he really exists? I think the bible as a huge romance, writen by many human hands, with some facts but with some fantasy, interpretations and posterior manipulation, like many other collective creation.

    “The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is the only way to earn salvation – that murder is wrong – etc.”

    Well, it’s really quite clear in his teachings, just as the tora, the Alcoran, the book of the deads, the mahabharata and many other mitologies, moral codes, holy books…


  9. Just the same as you believe (by faith) that when you die there is no afterlife.

    Nonsense.

    Unless you can demonstrate an afterlife to in fact, exist, the default position is “no, there probably isn’t a heaven; no, there probably aren’t any unicorns.”



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